you are thinking about existence from a human experience, but there are things like rocks that exist without any suffering. we are such a tiny fraction of all the existing things out there, it is probably infinite. yet because we suffer it all must go? the irony is that you value life tremendously when you think killing yourself is the solution. you think the end of human life is that powerful, but really it just removes you as an observer to the set of existing things, all your matter and energy continues existing. killing yourself as a philosophical stand against existence is the equivalent to burying your head in the ground when confronted with a problem. it is weak, but life too is weak. only we suffer
As long as dopamine outweighs cortisol it might be worth continuing. Keyword *might*.
For example if you can claim disability or neetbux and live on this shitplanet without effort, living can be worth it.
If you have to wageslave away 10 hours a day in McDonalds just to not starve to death in some third world country, it may not be worth to live.
People ponder these checks, balances and transactions daily. That's why young people in impoverished countries often join paramilitaries, revolutionary armies or criminal gangs.
What do they have to lose? Die in a civil war, shootout or be a slave for the rest of your life.
Access to easy resources is what makes suffering diminish. What are royals or trust fund kids in the end but parasites who get something for nothing just by existing?
*That* is why people dream of becoming rich and why it's an ultimate life goal for billions of people.
They want to get something for nothing. They want to make other poor bastards suffer and labor for them while they have to do nothing.
Laziness is therefore the ultimate psychological driving force of humans.
One trick is to never give up. Everything is possible, magic is real.
Well… thats some big fat lie is there.
It's just the schizophrenic poster
Hedonism is the philosophy of apes and lower level animals generally. The goal of life shouldn't be to achieve as high dopamine levels as possible. Our Western comfy societies show that there is no relation between material pleasures and happiness, most people in the West are miserable even if they have everything material or pleasurable they wished for. Men prosper on challenges and fights, not on pleasures, peace or happiness.>>193727
I see it like this instead. "Magic" isn't real, not everything is possible and life can be often shit and full of suffering but…That "but" is for us to figure out.
not saying life isn't worth living. just that life is inherently weak and we suffer as a result of it. you can think of suffering broadly as a sufficiently complex system lacking some input, requirement, need, desire, want, etc, and it affects not just you from a human view, but also your cells, they tire out and degrade over time, need to be replenished, must be refueled with oxygen and atp, we have countless biological requirements in the form of calories, minerals, vitamins, oxygen, water, and from those even more countless amino acids and proteins everything is in a constant state of chaos simply trying to maintain its own cellular structure. to think the lack or decrease of stress hormone cortisol is all something needs to not suffer is again like burying your head in the ground. the body is stressed from all levels as a result of life. life is an aberration, your cells are working themselves to death to perpetuate the body for as long as it possibly can. again, not saying it isn't worth living. just that life is really weird and suffering seems inherent to the process from all levels. whether or not you think it is good or bad, it changes nothing, the process will continue going on, and even if you extinguished it, life might pop back up again somewhere else in the universe
>>193709>Life is shit but still better than death or non-existence.
Why? Why is something better than nothing?
If only there was an effective test to start a eugenics program so that only people who can affirm existence would exist.
To me it is better than nothing. I used to think that nothing should have existed because existence is fucked up. Then I realized it is good that things exist, including animals and humans, even if we suffer. There are enough good things to justify existence. Of course we can go into abstract philosophical arguments territory but I don't think it is worth it as they are just wordplays. Usually this discussion boils down to "is life worth it with all its sufferings?" and my No changed to a Yes over time.
It's simply wrong to imply any argument that challenges your conclusion is "abstract philosophical arguments territory." Imagine if the tables were turned and you were trying to make the case to me that this typical view (it's innately good that humans, animals, life, etc. on earth exists since something is better than nothing indeed the majority view) was the false one, and I was trying to convince you of your standpoint on the matter now. So in this hypothetical. I would be looking at this or any other potential counterargument to the view I'm currently arguing for (that this isn't the case and that nothingness and absence of life is not worse) as "abstract philosophical arguments territory."
At any rate, my case for my argument is simple: nature is not good and the idea that it is is just human perception. You say it's good animals are around but it's only a matter of moments before they get devoured by another animal or otherwise die due to disease, disaster, failure to procure subsidence. And it's the same for humans. It's just anthropocentrism that humans think they're special and above nature or indeed animals at all, just since we live a miniscule amount of time (in any relative sense) longer and are the most complex and intelligent. Fundamentally, life is just a savage thing. 99% of homo sapiens in the time humans have been around on earth (pre-civilization) wouldn't have even been having a back and forth or consideration over this because they were completely at the mercy of nature and the elements. This delusion that life is anything more substantial or innately 'good' really coincides with the advent of civilization.
Arguing about being or non-existence is certainly abstract territory for me. It's just wordplays. It boils down to your subjective experiences with life. I don't see anything wrong with animals or us suffering and dying because there are good things in life too. Maybe this life isn't good enough for you, your choice. For me it is fine. The good things in my life justify everything bad for me. And this is the same for most living things or those that existed once. No matter how sick the puppy is, he wants to live. No matter how much we humans suffer we try to make the best of it. It is better for us to exist and to experience even 1 single day of happiness even if the rest of existence is bad. The good moments are rare but then again, that fact alone makes them so fun and enjoyable. If we never had to suffer then we wouldn't feel pleasure either.
>>193902>Maybe this life isn't good enough for you, your choice
Not my choice. Bad genetics and experiences and multiple external bad events
> It is better for us to exist and to experience even 1 single day of happiness even if the rest of existence is bad
This is utterly crazy and retarded. You’re an absolute moron.
> The good moments are rare but then again, that fact alone makes them so fun and enjoyable. If we never had to suffer then we wouldn't feel pleasure either.
No, good moments are irrevelant compared to the bad moments. You pro-natalists are most wicked and evil people I see in this board. You justify most horrible and evil existences for most stupid reasons. I have absolutely nothing in common with you other than virginity. Which I even doubt you’re virgin as pro-natalist.
Being content in life is a choice. It starts with you deciding to change your perspective.
The good times justify the bad things in existence. Every living being clings to existence, you can see videos about abortions and how the fetus tries to save itself. People in bad circumstances like poverty or being imprisoned or sick still cling to existence, it is because suffering isn't something negative. Suffering and existence come hand in hand, just like existence and pleasure. People who really hate life are rare, even you don't hate existence despite claiming that you do.
I'm a pro-natalist because I want more wizards and weird people like us to born. This world should be ruled by wizards or wizardly characters. Only we can achieve the cultural golden age of civilization. Normals should be our slaves and the worker/warrior class. We are the intellectuals, priests, sages, priests, artists, philosophers of the future.
Why don't you kys then?
Oh, wait that's bound to 'bring more suffering', right? You claim life is suffering and nothing in it is of some value, yet go above and beyond advocating against killing yourself(by only when its YOU who aren't kysing, amiright?), pleading the great virtue of not doing bad in an already oh-so-meanie world.
It's ironic how all of you claim to transcend the human perception of life whilst clinging to it's abstracts, the 'good', the 'evil', etc. Talking about delusions and fantasies, whilst pleasuring(da plesur, yeah, one of those worldy things you despise) yourself with the thought of not-existing, then pleasuring yourself some more coping with the thought of actually kysing. Anti-natalism is the BPD of philosophy, really.
'If I were not existent, then it all would be cool.' - just wondering how you manage to convince yourself into believing your philosophy is the high take, while spitting out shit this retarded. 'But look at them stones, they don't suffer! Wish I was a stone…' Laughable.
There's bound to be a place where it's legal to kill a consenting person. Thinking of starting a 'legally lift the weak faggot's curse of being with a sledgehammer to please myself and get paid for it' kind of business. Oh, wait, did I say 'please myself'? Silly. What I truly meant was - 'to help the poor soul escape it's suffering and become blissful in non-existing(very virtous of me)'.
There is no point in arguing with you. As the other poster said you’re a delusional crazy man.>>193973
I’m gonna kill myself one day don’t worry. Its just a matter of time. My existence is mistake and I should never been born. Pro-natalist retards want more of the mistakes to be born because of their evil and lie religions.
>>193741>Our Western comfy societies show that there is no relation between material pleasures and happiness
Living standards aren't even that high in the modern West. Most people cannot afford a house, they work their asses off for the majority of their waking hours. It only seem pleasurable when compared to third world shitholes but overall, it's not like people here have reached the peak of material pleasure or anything.
Say the guys who are praising death and non-existence despite the fact that they continue to exist. Funny!
>I’m gonna kill myself one day don’t worry. Its just a matter of time.
That is just c-o-p-e. You are like the jews who are waiting for the messiah to come save them or the christians who are waiting for judgment day or the socialists who are waiting for the revolution that won't come. Lol At least those people are waiting for external factors to deliver them, you, what is your excuse? You are waiting for yourself…to kill yourself?>My existence is mistake and I should never been born.
Yes, being a virgin friendless man is the end of the world, oh woe, how horrible a fate…I was being ironic in case you didn't notice. You are just a self-hating failed normal like the rest of the pessimists.>>193984
You can always look at people who are more successful than you and get butthurt. "Johnny Depp is richer than me, shit, fuck life" You people don't appreciate how easy and good you have it. Like you said, it is worse everywhere around the world. Westernfags simply have ridiculous expectations when it comes to life. "Oh I'm not a millionaire by 30, I don't have 5 cars, I can't afford a trip to the Bahamas every year, shit!" To the rest of us from all over the world it comes off as spoiled people not knowing their privileges.>>193973
> Being content in life is a choice. It starts with you deciding to change your perspective.>The good times justify the bad things in existence> I'm a pro-natalist because I want more wizards and weird people like us to born. This world should be ruled by wizards or wizardly characters. Only we can achieve the cultural golden age of civilization
You’re utterly crazy and evil. I see no point to argue with you and yes my existance and people like me should never born.
Pro-natalism is the most evil ideology in this world and should be a bannable offense. Wtf are you doing in wizchan if you’re even pro-natalist? Gtfo to 4chan .
>>193992>You people don't appreciate how easy and good you have it
I never said that I don't appreciate some of the perks of living in the West or that I don't understand how bad people in the rest of the world have it. I was just countering that anon's claim that high depression rates in the West 'proves' that hedonism is not a valid philosophy for life. You need to be insanely rich to live like a true hedonist. Working in a warehouse for minimum wage, coming home tired to your cramped-up apartement, to spend what few hours of free time you have looking at a screen doesn't sound like an existence centered around pleasure.
We can look at the higher circles or classes then. If material stuff and plain hedonism should make everyone happy then why are rich people depressed or suicidal lots of times? Obviously hedonism isn't a satisfying ideology for mankind in the long run.>>194031>yes my existance and people like me should never born.
Then you acknowledge that you are a failed norm who thinks that only the norm life has any value. Go to r9k, you can meet with plenty of self-hating losers there.
We are quite literally living in a specially designed torture chamber that is set up to maximise our suffering but if we kill ourselves I believe it would doom us to a worse fate, we aren't allowed to try to escape
>>193709>Can any of you say with 100% confidence that you managed to say Yes to existence?
No, i have no choice, but why i should?
Existence is not good thing, ive never needed or asked for it.
>>193741>no fun allowed
Life is meaningless.
But what your alternative?>"Magic" isn't real
Appeals to majority and authority are not legit arguements.
>>194031> Gtfo to 4chan
Even 4chan don't likes them.
I was suicidal again yesterday, but I choose to live because Im afraid of what may come next, death is like entering a room where you cannot know whats inside of it where anything is possible
>>193944>The good times justify the bad things in existence.
And then he accuses others of coping.
Absolutely delusional and insane.>Every living being clings to existence
Its just banal self preservation instinct.
>>193944>just be yourself brah!
>>193992>You people don't appreciate how easy and good you have it.
Ah, classical boomer, but there dem hungry africans.
Life is like "i have no mouth and i must scream".
But somehow way worse.
Because existence is all you have for certain? If you die you can't experience any of the good things either.>>194078
My alternative is do what you want, even if it is painful or brings you suffering. Hedonism leads exactly to appealing to majority and authority. Life may be meaningless but that doesn't take away any value from what you value and cherish.>>194111
If you don't think the good times justify the bad things and if you believe that only "banal self preservation instinct" keeps you alive then why are you still alive? I keep asking you people all the time and none of you can give me a good answer, only evasions and bullshitting.>>194112
Yeah exactly, be yourself. Aside from the meme, what is wrong with this again?>>194113
Ah, classic spoiled privileged 1st world child whining and belly-aching because he isn't a billionaire. You do indeed live life on easy mode, continue to delude yourself that your life is hard. lol You don't even know what suffering is, you probably associate it with not having enough money to buy the newest gaming pc or eating too much macburgers.
>>194123>Because existence is all you have for certain? If you die you can't experience any of the good things either.
HAHAHA. I won’t experience pain which is more important
> If you don't think the good times justify the bad things and if you believe that only "banal self preservation instinct" keeps you alive then why are you still alive? I keep asking you people all the time and none of you can give me a good answer, only evasions and bullshitting
I’m gonna kill myself 1 day. %100 gonna happen.
You’re that pro-natalist scum that should’ve been banned long time ago but alas mods are not doing their job. You’re literally a normalfag who comes wizchan to preach improvebrah , normalnigger values. You just don’t belong to this place.
We should care what you feel or think, because?
I don't hold sjw values and never will.
So this retarded bootlicker talk will never work on me.
>>194123>You do indeed live life on easy mode, continue to delude yourself that your life is hard. lol
Majority of people cannot even aford to rent apartament without roommates, let alone house.> You don't even know what suffering is
Yes i do and i wish you to fully taste it too, coffin dodger.
Boomers are truly worst generation.
>>194123>then why are you still alive?
I cannot force myself to an a hero and there might be after life.>I keep asking you people all the time and none of you can give me a good answer, only evasions and bullshitting.
in other words, "answer me what is 2+2, no don't say it 4"
>>194123>do thou will
I am not satanist.>even if it is painful or brings you suffering.
Not everyone is okay with rotting in lower realms, nor should they be, demented retard.
>>194047>If material stuff and plain hedonism should make everyone happy then why are rich people depressed or suicidal lots of times?
They're not. In fact, they love life so much, that a lot of them are obsessed with finding ways to extend their lifespan as much as possible or even trying to become immortal. Look at the Rockefellers, Rotschilds, George Soros.
So all those rich and famous people who get addicted to drugs and sex and become depressed don't exist suddenly?
>>194165>I’m gonna kill myself 1 day. %100 gonna happen.
Intense levels of coping. See you tomorrow.>>194182>in comparison the bad things of life for example like trauma, severe childhood abuse, isolation, bullying and mental damage from being treated like a subhuman since birth will stick onto you like a blood stain onto a white linen shirt.
That's not true, it's a matter of perspective. You can focus on the good things or the bad things in your life.
>>194233>You can focus on the good things or the bad things in your life.
aka coping and shoving head in sand.
Not at all. You can acknowledge life is full of suffering and far from ideal while at the same time focusing on the good things in it and enjoying yourself and embracing life.
Its like i am talking to npc, parroting same thing over and over.
>>194233> That's not true, it's a matter of perspective. You can focus on the good things or the bad things in your life
No, that’s objectively wrong. Psychologists proved it that bad memories and experiences leaves more strong effect on us than good ones. The so called good
things is very much irrelevant compared to bad ones.
Just embrace it brah you’re coping brah never gonna kill yourself never gonna let you down
Just focus on the good things brah c’mon brah be yourself
>>194308>never gonna kill yourself never gonna let you down
probably laughed at this more than i shouldve
If you're talking about 'celebrities', those people got sexually abused as children and often develop mental issues from constantly being in the spotlight as well. I don't think they're a good example to use here.
But I suppose it depends on your definition of 'rich' as well. My definition of rich is that you can simply choose to not work and live off accumulated wealth. A lot of people who seem rich, like doctors or lawyers, cannot do this and deal with the same type of stress as lower-class people. They need to pay off their mortgages, maybe they have a student debt and if they lose their source of income for a month, they'll end up on the streets. They may have a nice car but otherwise, they belong to the same slave caste as the guy working in a warehouse.
The best thing we can do is train our resilience. Life is unfair and full of suffering, especially for a wizard, so we should learn how to get comfortable with suffering if we want to somewhat enjoy this pitiful existence.
Psychologists don't know how to wipe their own asses, they can be disregarded without much thought.>>194308
Wahh wahh life is so evil it's like dude, full of suffering and I hate life so much yet I never even tried to kill myself lol I'm not doing it because I don't want to upset muh family and and I will do it someday for sure! I hate life so normals shouldn't reproduce becauz, oh becauz I care so much about everyone else, see I have morals and empathy unlike you and everyone else in this cruel world!!4>>194371
My point is simply that money or material pleasures aren't enough to make anyone happy or satisfied since it is possible to still be depressed while having access to all sorts of pleasures. Clearly men need something other than just mere and fleeting pleasures.
>>194407>Psychologists don't know how to wipe their own asses, they can be disregarded without much thought.
The pot calling the kettle black.
depends how the money is obtained
if you are just given money for nothing and your happiness doesnt improve, you are either an idiot or money isnt your primary cause of dissatiafaction in life
if you work hard for the money and sacrifice everything else in your life… well no shit they wont be happy, normans are needy creatures
if you're depressed or mentally ill, oh fucking well, nothing helps those people, no reason to scorn money. give me an income for doing nothing and i exist live happily
Retarded normalnigger. You need to be banned.
Money and wealth also bring troubles of their own with them. It makes you easy prey to all sorts of addictions since you can get easy access to them. Being rich or wealthy is overrated. It doesn't heal your mental wounds or give meaning to your life, it also doesn't give you inner peace. You could be the richest man in the world and still be a sour, bitter guy.
Give me some food, internet, a place to live alone and I won't complain.
>>194440> Being rich or wealthy is overrated. It doesn't heal your mental wounds or give meaning to your life, it also doesn't give you inner peace. You could be the richest man in the world and still be a sour, bitter guy
Gtfo of this place you lying retarded piece of shit. Why there are so many morons in wizchan seriously.
>>194440>Give me some food, internet, a place to live alone
Having that without working 5 days a week is being rich, it requires many millions of dollars to do that for a lifetime
Rich people can rarely afford to be NEET I think. I mean you have to do stuff to protect your wealth or to increase it. You have to go out, meet people, etc. I don't think Bill Gates or Elon Musk have that much free time for themselves, they are too busy living for their wealth.>>194462
It is true. Money and happiness don't go together.
>>194464> I mean you have to do stuff to protect your wealth or to increase it. You have to go out, meet people, etc.
Nope, you just buy assets with it and manage your portfolio, which can be done online. Anything you dont want to do you can hire someone, like property managers who deal with renting. People like Bill Gates and Elon dont represent all the rich
>It is true. Money and happiness don't go together.
Incorrect. Dont be misled by anecdotes.
Thanks for bringing this question to light for me today. I needed that.
I just want to love this life and be free from it.
Rich people certainly can afford to be a NEET. Schopenhauer was the 19th century of a trust fund baby. After university he was a NEET for the rest of his life and he only lived on the equivalent of $200,000 a year.
All those rich people "neeting" are actually extra-social people. That is why they can be NEETs. Because they have enough social skills to recruit people to slave away for them and manage their things. That said, there is a huge responsibility that comes wealth and it is foolish to ignore it. You can't just play video games all day and live the hikki life all you want. You will have to leave your room if you want to defend your wealth.
>Incorrect. Dont be misled by anecdotes.
Again, if money was all it took to be happy then wealthy people wouldn't be depressed. As facts show, rich people can still get depressed. Happiness comes from yourself, not from external factors.
>>194440>Give me some food, internet, a place to live alone and I won't complain.
guess what? you need money for all that. there is a minimum amount of money that wizards and neets and poorfags could comfortably survive off. no one is talking about gigagorillionaires here
We were talking about being rich and wealthy. I mentioned how you don't need much to be happy. That's all.
>>194516> Happiness comes from yourself, not from external factors.
>Again, if money was all it took to be happy then wealthy people wouldn't be depressed. As facts show, rich people can still get depressed
Yep, lies again. You’re just an ordinary retard who believes in lies. Rich people are not depressed by any means and they never kill themselves. I really can’t believe how many morons in wizchan seriously.
Can't handle that mainstream materialism might not be true, huh? You are the delusional here if you think money and material stuff will bring you satisfaction and happiness. Go study years then, become a doctor or lawyer and get rich and live a hollow life chasing money all your life if you think money = happiness.
Upper class people get depressed, desperate or develop other emotional problems all the time. That is why psychiatry and psychology was even invented, not for the average guy, but because bored and burnt out rich people needed some life-changing advice.
Being poor is much worse than being rich.
Gaming umpc would make me happier but i cannot buy one, i simply don't have money.
Depends on the situation. Like, I'd rather be poor but alone and having more free time than be rich but having to do meetings and having to wageslave all my time.
You fool yourself with lies like rich people also struggles. No, rich people on average are very happy and nearly never kill themselves. While poor people struggles and they’re the majority of people who do suicide. Continue to delude yourself faggot.
Barely anyone kills himself because he is poor, don't make me laugh. You don't know anything about people or the world.
Vast majority of people who kill themselves are poor for some reason you absolute retarded moron. You’re the one don’t know anything about this world you piece of shit. Continue to delude yourself with a lie that rich are
depressed you retarded faggot.
Why do you assume that suicidal people wish to destroy everything? The goal is not to remove everything but to merely remove everything relative to the observer. I agree that it is like burying your head in the ground which is frowned upon but sometimes that is a valid solution.
Schopenhauer was a major NEET. You have to be a NEET to write real books.
Philosophy is not 'real books'. It's pseudo-intellectual drivel written for people who want to do the equivalent of mentally jacking off over doing hard work. If you actually cared about understanding or learning you would read STEM books. But of course: that would require effort, and failing that would instantly expose you as an intellectual fraud.
The real tragedy is all the wizards here who read these books and manage to convince themselves they're learning something deep. It reminds me of stoners who think their hallucinations carry profound wisdom. Lah-mah. Most people here would probably get more profound insights from a high school text on mathematics. I'm telling you: there is surprising elegance in basic arithmetic. Even a basic number line runs deeper than philosophy.
Philosophy is essentially a pragmatic way of reaching the truth, trying to reach the truth by though alone is not enough, and let alone accurate, if it were accurate then it would not have branched and deviated in different schools of though.
Wizards looking for a solid foundation of the truth for any topic should seek knowledge in science and spirituality.
But hey philosophy is food for though, it's passion for the brain, some wizards balance/complement boring science with philosophy.
not him, but there are more poor people than rich. do they kill themselves at a rate higher than the proportion of the population?
You couldn't just judge based on poorness because it would have different factors on top.
Is a rich guy more likely to get medical care saving his life than a poor guy? In some countries they are.
If a guy's wife divorce rapes him and he kills himself while poor because of it. Did he suicide from poorness or suicide from divorce? Does he count as rich for 30 years or poor for 6 months?
If a guy loses his job but has a million in the trust fund he gets access to in 2 years is he rich or poor when he suicides?
In general lower class men are more likely to suicide than upper class men as in "Fuck it, I'm out". But upper class have their own problems with drug over doses and drunk driving into trees in sports cars.
Well to add to you point, I think the fall is harder on those that more to lose. If misery is the status quo then nothing will push you toward suicide very hard.
My favorite simplistic and tired analogy on philosophy is that it is akin to getting out of the pool and analyzing the best strokes, the movement of the waves, how deep the troughs may be, the type of people in the pool, etc.
But these observations don't get you anywhere until you actually start swimming in the pool.
It is ultimately a coward's way out of learning through experience.
One would hope with enough "foresight" one can dodge swallowing a bit of nasty pool water, but this is an inevitability.
The better way to prepare is to know to recover when you start drowning.
For no amount of analyzing will save you from drowning.
I think this is why the "philosopher-KING" is what's romanticized among historians: someone with enough analytical depth but actually still does things instead of masturbates onto a page